It's a learning process! OM Parallels OWS!

[kim]

After the honeymoon......

I recommend this article! It's a learning process for everyone, please have patience!
"Dissension among the ranks at Occupy Wall Street"
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45285979/ns/us_news-life/t/dissension-among-ranks-occupy-wall-street/#.TsIpcFZjg-B

"A meeting of the protest’s general assembly late Sunday descended into yelling and jockeying over who could speak, witnesses said, as protesters living in the Zuccotti Park encampment voiced concerns about financial transparency, feeling underrepresented and not having enough daily resources as winter nears.

The contentious meeting came days after an ad hoc group of protesters held an alternative general assembly and yet others living in the camp formed their own movement.


“I’ve seen this coming for a while, the occupier versus non-occupier,” Lorenzo Serna, a 31-year-old from North Dakota in the camp since the occupation began Sept. 17, told the crowd gathered at the foot of the sprawling tent camp near Wall Street. “People fractured, people stopped listening and coming together, and instead went on their own way. That can be fine, but we still live here together, so let’s work on it.”
[......]
“We are in our infancy stages right now,” Thies said. “We still have a lot of room to grow, a lot of progress to be made, but we will eventually get it down.”

[josh]

Yes, this movement is considerably different from any other political (or non-political) group that I've been involved with in the past. It has been self-organizing almost from the get-go, and that's not something that most of us are familiar with. It will take time (more than a couple months) to work the bugs out, and some of them may not get worked out at all. That's fine. It's not as though the current system of social organization is totally frictionless or without fault (um...that's kinda why we all showed up, right?) and I don't believe that any system can or will ever be, at least so long as we remain free-thinking individuals and not clones of one another.

I think the main thing to keep in mind (and in heart, so to speak) is that 99% of us in the movement want positive change, want to figure out how to bring that about, and are genuinely trying to make that happen. The other 1% may well be provocateurs, COINTELLPRO style (let's not be naive, that shit still goes on), but if the rest of us commit to the process and to each other, they're not going to get very far.

I, for one, am glad that we don't have the numbers that they do in NY...my Gawd, what a facilitation nightmare. I hope they work their issues out and that we work ours out. If we stay committed to our principles, I think that can happen.

Thanks for posting this Kim

[troutsky]

Good points Josh. Everyone brings baggage from the destructive culture we exist in, just look at lulizland here! Damaged people (all of us to some extent) will not just suddenly figure out how to participate in a self-determining process. As John Lennon put it : They torture and scare you for twenty odd years

Then they expect you to pick a career.

[lululzland]

Take one letter out and you have Trotsky


"While my politics are radical, revolutionary socialist"

~Troutsky

[josh]

lulzland, I don't think he's trying to hide his politics (or his love of fishing). You do know the difference between Trotsky's socialist politics and those of the Bolshevists who had him assassinated, right? Right?

[josh]

troutsky, do we have to name names? I think most of us can spot a troll on the boards, or a confused kid, without having to call them out personally. Seems needlessly antagonistic to me. Just sayin'....

[lululzland]

So now having freedom of speech used against the mainstream of thought is being a "Troll"

Seems to me that "Troll" is just being used as another tool for social alienation.

As for Trotsky and Lenin the main difference was Trotsky wanted a global communist revolution where Lenin was promoting socialism just in Russia.

Sorry if I don't want to be a part of your socialist revolution here.
I think it would be doing a disservice to all the men and women who came before me in this country to jump on the communist bandwagon.

I don't think capitalism is the problem... I think an apathetic populace is.

Calling me a confused kid? Move to China or Norway if you want to be a socialist or communist. Just leave... it's a big world.

There has been communist infiltration of this country for seventy years.

I think it is you sir who are confused.
Occupy is not what democracy looks like it is what communism looks like.

I have been watching for this communist movement for a long time... been waiting for it.


And I'm not a kid. I am over four decades old.

[chebob]

Lululzland,
What is your purpose of commenting here on these boards? If you think Occupy is "communist/socialist" and you fear these ideologies, why do you come here? Are you a counter-revolutionary trying to save people from radicals?
I don't think anyone has tried to silence you...they are simply identifying your behavior as that of a troll...so, if the shoe fits, then so be it.
I, for one, am intrigued by communism, socialism and anarchism. I definitely feel your fears about these ideas are not entirely misplaced and mis-guided. These projects as they manifested in the 20th centuries were failures. And no one I know, including Troutsky, has ever defended them. In fact, most believe the best thing to have ever happened to the Left, was the end of Stalinist Soviet Union and Maoist China.
Now, we are able to look at these historical failures in order to reinvent them. Because, it isn't the hypothesis of communism that is wrong (in fact, it is quite possiblely the most important and relevant hypothesis), but instead the form they took.
Furthermore, one cannot look at the destruction of our world, the wars, the starvation, overpopulation, lack of democracy, etc. and say that capitalism has worked. In fact, capitalism has been the most destructive economic theory in human history. What's more, is that it's internal logic is flawed, unlike the that hypothesized by communism.

[troutsky]

Anyway, I don't know if they have made my ideas illegal yet or reason for deportation, but at least I'm not apathetic.

[debbyflorence]

Maybe its a learning process , but just because it is a learning process doesnt mean we should tolerate abusive behavior. Today I dared to climb out of my mini-hiatus, and share a concern. In response, I was told I should go join MoveOn, among other dismissive and shaming things. I ask this group to please commit to some principles of decorum and respect, even while growing.

I expect the attitude that all our opinions are valued and should be shared, even when we don't agree. I dont care what kind of growth spurt this is, we as people should never excuse abusive behavior. I have been told i am full of shit for asking questions, I have been told I am trying to take over when I facilitated meetings when no one else would step up, i have been accused of this that and the other thing, and none of them have been true. Some of these peple have apologized to me after saying these things to me, and you know who you are, and I accept your apologies --- I just really feel like this has to stop now. No more swearing at each other and accusing each other of bad intentions. Just hear each others disagreements and try to see how we can still communicate.

if i share my opinion someone might attack me within this group. That makes me very hesitant to speak, and you guys all know that is pretty amazing, seeing how i am outgoing by nature. Imagine what that feels like to less outgoing people!

Also: If you see another OM member getting personally attacked, dont leave it to them to defend themselves. Dont excuse the attack by saying "oh that person is just stressd out' Of course, support both people. But don't support the behavior. And I am talking about personal attacks like insults, shaming, and swearing at people. I am not talking about when things just get tense because people don't agree.

The other irony is i feel I have lost my "voice" here at OM because I had to go take a full time job in the corporate machine and that job is sucking the life out of me. Suddenly my opinions matter less because I am a single mom with no family in town to help me, and i just cant really find the energy or time to come to all the meetings any more? You guys are sticking up for people like me but my voice is less relevent??? That's irony. This group as a whole, especially the active people, need to commit to the issues of communication and voice before they will attract or retain many members. If you are not concerned with involving the real 99% then you are not part of the occupy movement, you are something else. So really, its pretty important that each and every person makes a commitment right now to listen to differing opinions, not shut them out or shame them.

PS I got one more irony: I actually feel safer at my job raising my hand to share my opinion than I do in this group. I know that pepole will not insult me , shame me, put me down, or treat me like they suspect me of evil, because they have to treat me respectfully in that environment and i have to treat them respectfully too. There are policies in place that protect me from being attacked due to my religion (beliefs) , gender, and even sexual identity. Do we really have to be in places where the only reason we treat each other respectfully is because of a policy , or we might be fired? Cant we just go for it, and be respectful all the time?

[johnmak]

Thanks for having the courage to speak out about this Debbie. In the two weeks or so since I walked away from this group out of exasperation, and attack, I have become involved with Progressive Democrats of America, MoveOn, and United Republic. If I can find more ways to keep busy in this struggle, I'll work with those too. What I have found, and actually what I have known all along, is that there are other groups, and with that, millions of people outraged over the same exact issues Occupy speaks about. They are also a part of the 99% and are working hard to find solutions to the injustices we are enduring. The Unions across this country are active too. The head of the SEIU was arrested willingly on the Brooklyn Bridge two days ago in support of and with Occupy and the 99%. I hope to work through multiple avenues to achieve a positive shift in collective consciousness in this country and the world. I believe it's called cooperation, not co-opting. We all have to work together. The issues are too big, and too important for us to be petty. I rejoined Occupy today at the encampment helping to erect the big tent. It was an emotional time for me, and it felt really good and right. It was spiritual in a way. The big tent should symbolize the work and effort of everyone who is involved with achieving the change we all want. There are many who sense deeply in our being, and in our souls what needs to be done. Let's do it.

[brooklyn]

I have a very hard time communicating with you, Debbie. I feel that my concerns about the GA are always taken very personally. I dont think it should be that big of a deal. I think we can support eachother and give eachother the benefit of a doubt. Trust that your fellow occupiers is working for the cause.
I would really like to say at this point is.. If a idea for a direct action comes up and it is "safe" and targets a issue of importance regarding the movement it should be supported not talked and debated to death. that said it is always a option not to participate, and it is of course important for everyone to informed about the possibility of arrest if there was any. I fine with the lack of structure within OWS, but it must be encouraged with openness to actions, which are the voices expressing themselves.