MoveOn Flag hanging in distress at encampment

[occupymissoula]

I'm just starting a thread here for people to discuss the current hoopla over the flag hanging at camp.

-jim

[occupymissoula]

Here's the email forward to [e-mail] that started this discussion:

Taryn Hart to me
show details 11:39 AM (2 hours ago)
FYI

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Craig Shannon
Date: Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 10:37 AM
Subject: 45-8-215 and flag
To: Taryn Hart

taryn,

i think that there may be an issue with respect to the upside down
flag with our without attached logos, ornaments, etc. it may be a
felony to so expose to the public.

as well, that type of conduct will serve to only antagonize the
situation and will work against your mission which is to create not
only awareness but sympathy for the movement. many missoulians who
might agree with the occupy movement will be turned off by that
conduct. as well, it will create many complaints from the public
forcing the county to evict you. unless the goal is to force an issue
and possibly expose someone to a felony charge, then I would consider otherwise.

my thoughts are that you should hang the flag upright if at all with a
message that you want to roll back time to an America that our
forefathers intended- one of patriots and enlightened ones.

cs

--
Craig Shannon
Criminal Defense Attorney

[damarmot]

I respectfully have to disagree with the statement of issue in hanging the flag upside down. I believe and I think many of us believe america and its people are in distress from all kinds of loss, those in particular financial, physical, legal, and this is a statement to that effect.

I am not a lawyer, but from the only information I can find it appears that it is likely considered a misdemeanor, at least in the state of NC.

"Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag. The Kuhns said the flag was taken as evidence, though the sheriff's department has no record of it."

Article of reference
www.mountainx.com/article/14838/Flagged-down-Activists-arrested-in-row-over-protest-flag-allege-abuse-by-Buncombe-deputy

After reading this article, ask yourself if the actions taken by the police were just. Then watch this video and ask yourself the same.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yap7EQOy2rU&feature=player_embedded

And you will see that the flag is a political football and how the authorities treat it is only a matter of convenience to what they are attempting to achieve.

So I call free speech on this, screw those who dont like it, I believe that if a person states they are in distress as a statement of protest, or if they are stating that america is in a state of distress as a statement of protest. Then that is their first amendment right to do so.

If we didn't want to cause any waves or open discussion an encampment would never have been considered. So my vote is ignore those who are just finding something to be angry and indignant about so they justify themselfs not to do anything at all.

[damarmot]

This has happend before, for an interesting article on the topic relating to an occupation.

www.nhregister.com/articles/2011/11/30/news/doc4ed675a5d6bac985889813.txt

[crystal]

Others have posted good links to check out, but this is a classic protest action. With respect, I vote it stay upside down. Perhaps folks at the encampment can explain if people ask, and email inquiries can be answered this way too.

As the daughter of an Air Force man, I know my dad would be really annoyed. But, honestly, I've tried to get him to look at things differently and have concluded it's futile. Perhaps we're worried about people that will not change their minds no matter how logical or how informed we may be. Some people will never be able to get what we're saying. Are we going to worry about that or let them decide how to express ourselves? At some point, we just have to speak what's in our hearts. I'm really distressed, and I want people to know it.

[kim]

I hope that the person who wrote this letter comes to the next GA to present his views in a way that we can gauge his meaning. this is very threatening language and personally I think full of something stinky if you get my meaning. Like I said, come to the GA, tell people your views in person. Don't write cryptic fear-mongering letters with a lawyer's signature. Your meaning could be misconstrued. (Maybe this is a personal correspondence not meant to be shared publicly?)

Also, I spoke personally with the man who hung that flag. He asked for help hanging it, which I admit I said I would rather not, as I know how violently people can act around this symbol. It sparked a conversation about the meaning of the upside-down flag as a sign of distress. The man is a veteran and in my mind knows exactly how to treat that flag, and shows it more respect than the author of this letter shows it by trying to use it to induce fear. Perhaps the one hanging it would not be so desperately seeking change like the rest of us if the people behind that symbol treated him with the respect you imply this symbol deserves.

Personally, I feel that flags are, in general, a sign of dominance and conquer, and would prefer we don't have it there at all, but out of respect for the many veterans that are a part of this movement I want to honor their views as well.

[occupymissoula]

Sorry folks, I forgot to include the emails from the county that started this off:

From: Larry Farnes
To: taryn.hart

Taryn
We have had several calls about this and here is an e-mail from the district court. This act of flying the flag upside down is an issue with our citizens most of whom make up your 99%. Please ask that the flag be honored.
Thanks--Larry

Larry Farnes


>>> "Johnson, Brenda (Court)" 11/30/2011 12:50 PM >>>

what's with the squatters putting up an upside down American flag on their big tent on the courthouse lawn?

_______________________________
Brenda K. Johnson, Judicial Assistant
to the Honorable John W. Larson
Missoula County Courthouse

[brooklyn]

Can we put up the Gadsen flag in addition to that to the corporate flag, I feel the flag isnt a real flag anyway its a adbusters flag.. why not hang it straight, its already a fake flag to begin with, I doubt the "court even noticed that part. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag
which is not a tea party flag anyway...

[johnmak]

Are we in distress or not? My view is that with what has been expressed from coast to coast, and from canada to mexico, and with solidarity throughout the world, the consensus is we are in distress. Hang it upside down.

[casey]

The flag is NOT an actual american flag. Notice the stars have been replaced with corporate logos. Just like our democracy has been replaced with corporatocracy.

[~kathlene~]

Response I wrote to the email from the county about the flag at camp (And apparently I shouldn't have even though I clearly noted the point of information separately from personal opinion....and included my personal email at the end so that angst could be directed at me rather than the group)

---
Hello All,

Point of Information -

If investigated, one would find that the flag in question is NOT a U.S. flag but one with corporate logos in the place of the traditional stars (i.e.: it is the seen in this link: reclaimdemocracy.org/images/corporate_logo_flag.gif )

In addition, I draw your attention to The United States Flag Code, Title 36, U.S.C., Chapter 10, as amended by the 94th Congress (approved July 7, 1976):

"§ 176. Respect for flag: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor. (a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property."

Should an actual U.S. flag show up in camp and be flown in the distress position, the meaningful application would not:

A) be illegal
B) be considered disrespectful according to The Flag Code and,
C) in no way be lost on those who understand the significance of such an act.

And now the comment of an individual who is, of course, not speaking for the group ---

Several members of Occupy Missoula, both campers and non-campers are veterans. We honor and respect their service in defense of the Constitutional right to free speech, a fact we demonstrated by tearing down our entire encampment in order to present no distraction from the Veteran's Day Celebration on the Courthouse lawn on 11 November. Additionally, Occupy Missoula is engaged in the ongoing and active practice of honoring the efforts and sacrifices of past, present and future veterans by continuing to exercise that Constitutional right. It should, perhaps, be noted that those of us who are not veterans are ALSO defending the rights afforded to U.S. citizens by the Constitution. Defense of these rights is not an act owned exclusively by veterans. Anyone with the fortitude to speak up about acts that defy accountability and/or democracy is defending the Constitution and the rights of those people for whom the document was drafted...namely the citizens of the United States. Defense of that document by the people who own it is not a rare act. It happens every day. It is happening on the Court House lawn whether anyone cares to recognize it or not.

It is my belief that every Occupation should have two U.S. flags on site, one flown in a distress position and one flown upright, with a sign underneath that says "We love America! We're here to fix it!" To fly a U.S. flag in the distress position at any Occupation seems to make the act itself more, rather than less, meaningful. As a result of the greed based legislation that is routinely levied against the planet (not to mention its citizens) by corporatized U.S. government, corporate control of foundational resources, and the corporatized education of our children, it is painfully obvious that the life and liberty of all people is in dire danger and distress. Flying a corporatized U. S. Flag upside down on the Missoula County Court House lawn seems to be a minimal infraction of the sensibilities in the face of the routinely criminal, corporatized paradigm one is faced with on a daily basis. I would suggest that being squeamish about such a display is the more offensive of the two acts. The manipulation of symbols is typically a thoughtful and relevant act. If it were not, no one would do it.

Kathlene


I'd like to mention that, on the way home from the Finance Working Group meeting tonight I saw a guy wearing a beat up pair of jeans that was patched from mid-thigh to crotch with a piece of material that looked exactly like it had been cut from the U.S. flag. I'm not too sure about anyone else, but the idea of someone's bum/genitals on the flag seems provocative in more ways than one. Of course, it wasn't really upside down so much as sideways.

[brooklyn]

I love you Kathlene.

[~kathlene~]

Love you back ~B~

[vicki]

Tonight was the second GA in a row where the upside-down flag was a topic of more discussion than I could enjoy. I've read through all of the comments above and found the remarks of Criag Shannon, Criminal Defense Attorney, to be closest to my own.

Mr. Shannon wrote, "that type of conduct will serve to only antagonize the situation and will work against your mission which is to create not only awareness but sympathy for the movement. many missoulians who might agree with the occupy movement will be turned off by that conduct."

In my view, Mr. Shannon is absolutely right. I am turned off by that conduct and, as an active participant in the Occupy Missoula movement, it has saddened me that the remarks I've made on the topic at 2 GAs have fallen on deaf ears.

I am a veteran. I love my country. It is my love of country that has me sitting through long GA's and work group meetings. I'm also a strong believer in the Golden Rule. Treat others as you would like to be treated. If local government and the local citizenry are to respect Occupy Missoula, we need to reciprocate by respecting them. This "screw them, we are exercising our first amendment rights" attitude I have read in this forum and heard at GA's is, in my view, counter-productive and short-sighted.

What did we set out to do here? Argue over minutia of flag etiquitte? Rage against the machine of Missoula County government? (Hello friends, they have been very accomodating.) Could we not simply demonstrate that corruption and un-regulated financial "wizardry" has ruined America's economy and that we, the American people, should not have to foot the bill.





Read more: occupymissoula.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=250#ixzz1fouwEjnD

[brooklyn]

does it matter to anybody at the GA that it is not a American flag? Just curious.. as I was not a part of the discussion.. and in the end the flag issue is pretty neutral to me.. I could care less about whether it is there or not..